Breivik testimony April 25, 2012
Oslo District Court 04/25/2012
[this post will be updated]
Google translation [edited for clarity]:
Comments from VG Morten Hopperstad: When is the break over and Breivik is back in the courtroom. Now he wants to explain about Psychiatry reports.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – When the court convened. As we continue negotiations with the interrogation of the defendant. [Breivik take the witness stand with a stack of documents in hand]
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna: Prosecutors begin by asking how Breivik thought it was to hear the victim testify.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – Breivik, we’ll talk a bit about the two rettspyskiatriske statements, but before we get into it, I would ask how it hvar been sitting listening to Thoresen, reading of the foklaringene Vestli and NN?
Anders Breivik Behring: – It’s tough to be here. [Holden: - How do you find it tough?] – It is impossible not to be grasped because of all descriptions. So it’s tough … but it is certainly much harder for others than for me, but I also think it’s tough. – [Holden: - If it's you to reflect on the necessity of what you have done?] It’s like I’ve said all along that it is cruel. Violence is the last solution. It is the most extreme action a man can do, to take another life. – And violence should be used when all other options have been tried, and that’s just cruel anyway. – But it’s not changing the basis for action and unfortunately, this is probably just beginning in Europe and more violent actions by militant nationalists. – It seems one could because the only thing I had hoped for was that the Labour Party and those in power could actually realized his mistake, apologized to its people apologized and admitted their mistakes, “yes, we made a mistake, we were not inundated land of immigrants. – “And the deconstructed a culture. We have learned from our mistake and we apologize for that. Instead, they continue in the same direction. ” – As the basis for struggle and resistance is even more true now than it was before July 22, unfortunately. – [Holden: - In what way is the foundation yet stronger now?] They are completely unwilling to change the political course and the Norwegians will not akspeptere losing their country and their people. And this is enough, unfortunately only the beginning. – You can see it if you follow the news. There has been an increase. Over the past decade and more and more realize that they are about to lose everything. And more and more realize that the meaning of life is not to eat sushi every day and have flat screens. – It’s other things that are important, and it is our culture. Our ethnic group. And it is certainly more and more people perceive is paramount.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – What about charity towards people from other parts of the world that has it harder than we have here?
Anders Breivik Behring: – There are many ways to help others. I do not know if you can call Japan and South Korea for ummennesklige. We will not use our country as a dumping ground for immigrants from other parts of the world. It is not the solution. – It is not the solution seeks Japan. The direction and the line I applied too.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – How well is it really you have studied Japan’s aid policy?
Anders Breivik Behring – I think probably most people are aware that they have been fairly categorically against mass immigration, but they provide assistance to other countries for it.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – In what way have you familiarized yourself with Japanese policy in this area?
Anders Breivik Behring – I’ve read about it. [Holden: - Where did you read about it?] – I have read about it. There are many sources. It’s … If you want to read about Japan and using the Internet you’ll find as many sources you want, thousands, and I have read many of them … [Holden: Can you name one?]
Anders Breivik Behring: – Various encyclopedia, Wikipedia is one source and there are various information pages on other countries. I’ve even read Norwegian books, that Norwegian historians have written about Japan.
Anders Breivik Behring: – [Holden: - Which book series is this?] A series of books dealing with basically every country in the world. Each book focuses on a country. “The world today” or something like that something. There are many series which made dealing with different countries. – [Holden: - Where have you read a lot about Japan?] Among other things there, and several other places.
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna: Holden starts by asking Breivik about how he felt the meetings. Breivik said that he liked to talk with Torgeir Husby and Synne Sørheim.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – It was a bit on the side of what we should talk about now. We involved forensic psychiatric statements at an early stage of the case, and when I told you that you should be allowed to give your comments at a later date. And now is the time arrived. When we first declaration Husby and Sørheim, then we look at statement number two. – First of all I’m interested in hearing about how you experienced the talks with Huseby and Sørheim. What was it you saw them?
Anders Breivik Behring: – Eh, no, I found it good conversations. I got a great sense of both Synne Sørheim and Husby. They work as professional people. It was nice conversations. I wanted to be as open as possible, so I told him basically the same as I have done in the police interrogation. – And it’s unimaginable amount of information considering that the interrogations are many pages. At that time it was perhaps not so much. I assumed that they would make an objective work. – And hoped that they were not too emotionally attached to the events.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – Do you feel any difference between being questioned by the police and talk to Sørheim and Husby?
Anders Breivik Behring: – The police are just concerned with finding the truth, as I noticed in a few calls later I got the impression that they concluded very early and was looking for very specific information. That was the impression I got.
Anders Breivik Behring: – But in spite of it, I thought that professional legal psychiatrists supposed to be objective so I was not too worried about it then. I had confidence in them.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – And then they come in late November with this statement, and the conclusion that you are irresponsible. How did you react to that?
Anders Breivik Behring: – Well, the police really not want me to know the conclusion, but it was another prisoner who shouted conclusion to me, which forced police to be open and tell what had happened, and then got I idea of what they had written, or in summary. – But it was well … Well it came out in late November, but the problem was that I could not access the report until mid-December. It is 240 pages and it took a while to work through it.
Prosecutors Svein Holden – I’ve realized that you have any objections to the product that they delivered, tell about them?
Anders Breivik Behring: – Is it true that the judges have received a copy of the op-ed I wrote with the addition? [The judge and legal aid lawyers say that this is not known to them. Request to split this out.] – I can tell that it was distributed to three Norwegian media companies, but all three chose to censor it in very great extent.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – But can you tell us about why you decided to write this feature article, which you have called it?
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: Judges denies that they have received the so-called chronicle that Breivik has written about the first report. His defense Odd Ivar Green hands out letter to the judges before the questioning begins.
Anders Breivik Behring: – What I decided, and what I saw was that this conclusion would arouse great debate and I did not participate in the debate before it was ripe for it. Therefore, I chose not to go out early. I also had to review the report.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – We can only grasp some hold of it. This is by 80%, you mean it literally, that it is actually 80%, or is it a speech?
Anders Breivik Behring: – Yes, I’m almost back to how it was done. But I can tell more about what I mean by that now. [Holden: - Yes, like that.] – Firstly, as I have mentioned earlier, I felt that they had concluded early on and worked with the support that conclusion and if you read the report in its entirety, I mean the – They had started with a conclusion, and so they have located the premises to support that conclusion.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – What was it that made you draw that conclusion, or get that impression?
Anders Breivik Behring: – It means we can see from witness descriptions. It’s incredibly numerous, and the only thing they have emphasized the sequences that are taken out of context. It gives the wrong impression, it is taken out of context and helps to support the conclusion.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – But as I understood you had you got the impression during conversations with them was that they were biased and drew a conclusion at an early stage?
Anders Breivik Behring: – As we talked, had conversations, I am so proud that they would do their job, otherwise I would not continue the talks. What I said was what I conveyed to the police.
Anders Breivik Behring: – It was absolutely identical. But what I reacted to in the beginning was that the talks were not filmed or taped in any way. And when I said “Why will not this loss? How can it be possible to verify a that? “And when they said that” in Norway, then we lose not. ” – And then I thought yes, then we try then, no. There was one point. Let’s see … there are very many sentences constructed there. What they claim that I have said, I very much do not say. – And this is not innocent misunderstandings, it is malicious fictions to support the conclusion. They have constructed the premises. – But anyway, I have read the report of his heroes, and if I had read about the person described, I had thought that they belong in lunatic asylums and should be medicated uimiddelbart. But that’s not me that is described in the report. – But I see that if there actually existed such a person then that person would firstly not be able to walk without a walker, and second, he would have been completely crazy. – But the person who is described in the report – it’s not me. [Holden: - Maybe we can take a small step to the side before we go into what is wrong. You talked about the "evil" ...] – When I spoke about the intention and I have no basis and I urge you to ignore. [Holden: - What do you think the reason is that they write things that you have said?] – I think we can take it at the end, after I have gone through this. [Holden: Yes, we may like it.] – The problem is that there is so much information that I’ll not go through everything, I will only take a few excerpts. Now the judges any documents. – It is an example that illustrates how thoroughly they have been set to work to pervert the information I gave so I appear to be an irrational person. – It’s probably an example, where they alleged that I have said this is from a paragraph: “The experts ask observanden explain his concepts.” – “Observanden explains. It is from al-Qaeda, the gangster scene, which is anarkomarxister blitzere, someone who serves the people. ” – “Is short for anarchist anarchism. It may be anarcho-Marxists etc Observant said he has made the words themselves, because they lacked. ” – The first sentence is fictional. I remember that I explained the use of the concept along the way without the need to inquire further. In sentence two [where there is talk of anarcho-jihadists and anarkomarxister] does not make sense, it sounds like it’s from a completely irrational person. – And what I actually meant, and we talked about which are the following: The terms used in the compendium and from an essay, explaining that the militant nationalist recruits from network environments. [Breivik lists some different known groups and communities as an example of what he meant]
Anders Breivik Behring: – In the compendium, I have referred to these groups as anarchist (?), Nationalists and Marxists. This is an example of things that I never uttered, and which has been kontruetrt in a way the experts, that I may appear irrational. – And it is repeated in these 13 calls. [Holden: - If for example we can take the next sentence there as well ... It says "The experts still not understand the concepts ..."] – What I suggest is that I focus on the important issues …. [Holden will also have follow-up immediately] [Holden: - In the third sentence states that the experts do not understand the concepts, you've paid that this is fictional.]
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – Then I wonder how a certain degree of certainty say that this is fictional?
Anders Breivik Behring: – So I remember conversations in very large degree, the conversations I had with experts were identical with those I had with the police.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – Can you rule out that the experts at one time or another has said, “You, Breivik … I still do not understand the concepts … “
Anders Breivik Behring – I do not remember all good, but I remember it well. That’s why I have commented on the [Holden: - It is a pretty formidable feature, being able to remember so well?] – The advantage of the beloved Holden [Breivik smiles] is that I have access to interviews with the police and I have conveyed exactly the same. – I remember that I conveyed exactly the same thing to the experts. [Will briefly interrupted by Holden]. But I can not say I remember everything. – [Holden: - Okay, go ahead.] I have taken two paragraphs that I have explained thoroughly. They continue until page 8 I skip the next section to save us some time. Throughout the report, they have experts specifically omitted pronouns such as “I” prior sentences. This is the person who uttered it, and in this case, there’s me, to sound very naive out. – It is also, as I see it, part of the strategy to build the premises. Many of the sentences seem totally retarded, and it is also the conclusion – that I’m totally retarded.
Comments from VG Morten Hopperstad: Two of the lay judges read the feature article they just got delivered. The document is written by Breivik and deals with what he believes is wrong in the first psychiatric report.
Anders Breivik Behring: – For example, on page 95 and 96 “Was a favorite among teachers, favorite in the class. Was great success, building networks. “
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna: The article that Breivik constantly refers to in the statement is a letter of 38 pages he sent to VG, Dagbladet and ABC News before the trial. The article is dated 26 March this year and was written by Breivik the cell. The contents were read by both prison and police before the letter was sent on. The title of the article are: “22/7: More than 200 lies are identified in the forensic psychiatric report”
Anders Breivik Behring – I utter me about it, but to say that I am expressing myself that way … I think just a retarded manifests itself as [Holden: Is it just the omission of pronouns that makes you feel you are being portrayed that way?] – Not only that, but this is one of the factors that they used very often. Often combined with other elements to make me stand out like crazy, or naive.
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: It seems that most concerned the government building that has been in court last few days, has chosen to follow Breivik comments to the expert report. Yet it is still not fully in the saddle.
Anders Breivik Behring: – Use of spesialord without further explanation that one is used for the label of disease. They have highlighted words from the manifesto that I’ve talked to them about, but they make it without one so it sounds very absurd. On several occasions they have also claimed that I am very hard to follow. [Holden: - Are you there?] – When I talk to people, I take as a starting point that they can not so much about politically motivated violence. In their case, they asked very little so obviously it is something they have not understood. For example, when I talked about the Marxist People Earn so they switched to the Blitz serve the people. – Obviously, they have not understood everything. But if they had asked me about the importance of course I had explained to me about it. Selective explanations and quotes from witnesses …. – Now I’ll go quickly through it … [Holden: - I'll just interject a question here I ...] I have a lot to go through, so it’s good if you do not interrupt me so often.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – Do you often feel that people misunderstand you when you are talking about politically motivated violence?
Anders Breivik Behring: – I think I’m good at explaining. I usually do not use spesialord unless I think they understand it.
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: When Breivik asks Holden to stop interrupting him so often, there is a short laugh through the hall. Breivik have so far had an over-bearing, but courteous to Holden through questioning. He responds comprehensive and coherent questions, but gets annoyed when he does not feel understood and called the prosecutor “beloved Holden.”
Anders Breivik Behring: – In case I do not think they understand it so I use less complicated words. [Holden says he will limit the interruptions of Breivik, now read on the expert report] “Observanden appear emotionally avflaltet with complete emonsjonell distance.” – And then, the answer to that is what I have explained to the judges. In order to survive I’m going to have it. It is a survival strategy. As I often use an academic language to distance myself. And it is one of several by-emosjonaliseringsstrategier. – And the dehumaniseringsstrategien known in the military for example. and also the meditation that displace fear and other emotions. – All this I explained to the legal experts, yet they have not written anything about it. [Holden: - Of these three elements. What would you say has been the single most important factor up to 22 July?] – It is well to avemosjonalisere them. [Holden: Are we talking then about the bushido?] Among other things, and meditations. [Holden: To consider bushido against other meditations?] – The meditation that I do as I do down in the cell below every time I pause, it is very effective. – It is probably the most effective strategy. It works differently for some but good for others. Then there are a number of specific claims, such as … I can start with the most absurd. That I have gone with a face mask and suffer from bacterial phobia. It is absolutely ridiculous. – I do not suffer from bacterial phobia and never used a face mask in my life. I have a particulate filter at home that I’ve used a few times. As when I rolled out the detonator. My mother wondered why I went with a particulate filter at home, when I said I do not know. – But it is certainly the reason I used it when I drilled out the aluminum dust. The second time was just before I moved up to Violence Lunden. – So free in nature, and I was supposed to be a volunteer at this event. In addition, there were only a few days until I was up to Vålstuen.
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: While Breivik explains about why he used a face mask inside, scroll prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh in the op-ed she has received. The article is 39 pages.
Anders Breivik Behring: – And I thought that now I can not get sick. I have to do everything I can to not get sick. It may damage the operation. So my mother came home one day, she had been infected with some friends. I thought “I can not risk getting sick now.” – And it was about two weeks before I would move up to Rena and a few days before I left the field competition. I said to myself that I had to do everything I can because it is a major threat to all that I work for. – And then I thought how it is possible to avoid getting sick when you live with is a person who is infected. And I have no expertise in it, so I called my doctor and asked about it. – And then they explained that if there is virus-based infections, it is very difficult, but if it is bacteria-based, so it is possible.
Comments from VG Morten Hopperstad: During the planning of terror attacks claimed Breivik that he used the Japanese meditation technique “bushido” to close the Vital Point’s out there. According to the mass murderer, he meditates in every break when he is present in the cell at the courthouse to keep emotions away at the trial.
Anders Breivik Behring – I said, “Is it possible, if I wear a face mask or particle filter, not to get infected?” Said the chances increase that I was not infected. I is trying to use it five to ten minutes a day to trying to not get infected. Then I noticed the day after I had been infected, and then of course I stopped using it. – When I was sick for three weeks. And they have learned about this episode that I called the doctor and talked to my mother. So they have written that I suffer from germ phobia and gone with a face mask for many years. – There are many such things. [Holden: For the sake of clarity: You said you had been there for you inside on two occasions, one time with your mother. Do you remember what you said?] – I know what I said and that was that I was going to drill out the detonator-casings that I should use in Government buildings. – I remember just not, but I could not explain what … (…) It may be that she thought I was suffering from germ phobia or had clicked in total. I’ll go thr
ough some points, among other things, that I am afraid of radiation. – And it is a fictitious claim, I have never said that. Why should you be afraid of radiation, unless you live less than ten mil from Chernobyl. – There has been little discussed, but I’m certainly not afraid of radiation, so I have never said that. – Then there is another statement that I claim to have the right to decide who should live or die in Norway. I have never spoken. What I have said is that … they have asked what gives you the right to kill? And then I explained that militant nationalists have a game that we think gives us a legitimate reason to use violence, just like Fidel Castro and Che Guevara and other revolutionaries. – When they would try to bargain power in Cuba. It is a mandate we give ourselves because we choose to fight. – I do not see myself as a judge. [Holden - I have to interject a question. When you set up lists of A - and B-traitors and say these people should be killed, it could of course be able to give the im
pression that you are in a way these people will live or die?] – Of course if you look broadly at what it may look like this, but there are very few people in Norway I see as legitimate targets. There are politicians and others who support multiculturalism.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – But is it not you who designates one percent as legitimate targets?
Anders Breivik Behring: – Among other things, I am. [Holden: - "Among other things," it's you, right?] In this case it is me, yes. [What can you say about the sentence to Husby / Sørheim ...]
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: Breivik will go through the points he has planned to take up before he answers questions from the prosecutor Svein Holden. Several times he asks Holden to save up their questions in the end, every time a short laugh from the audience. Holden responded that he can not promise not to interrupt him.
Anders Breivik Behring: – Can you take the questions afterwards? [Holden: - I can not promise, so if we can finish with the question I asked just now. If you see the wording of Husby and Sørheim is that correct?] – The way it is described on seems quite absurd. If one says that such a political right-wing extremist who wants to execute political activists, it is a correct way to describe it. If you use the [report] the words so it sounds totally absurd out. – And then there is a comment “to single-handedly save Europe.” On page 10, page 57 in the psychiatric report. So they have mentioned that I believe I should have claimed to be single-handedly save Europe. Firstly, I have never used the word “salvation”. I remember that Husby said he had two patients who believed they were Jesus. And it seemed as though he hinted that I was the third of them. – It was the impression I got. And … so he thinks that I fall into that category, I believe I am Jesus, or the like. But I have never used the word “salvation” or s
aid that this is my fight. I said that I am a foot soldier. I am nothing more than anyone else, but I have to take criticism that I could have used a pompous word order to the police in the beginning. – And I’ve probably made it easy for them to take things out of context and make me sound irrational out. I have to take the criticism. What I told the police I stand for. But for a person who has chosen to make such mistakes is a lot of ammunition that can be used.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – You said somewhere that you had been open [to the committee], but now I get the impression that you have come to erroneously named. Can you elaborate on that?
Anders Breivik Behring – I did not say anyone is wrong, but I have probably used a pompous language, and that I should not have done. What was the thinking behind it, was that “if I manage to convey this in a very logical way, so there is no way that they can find me insane.”
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: Husby and Sørheim pay close attention to the objections Breivik has the report. Husby has taken on reading glasses, but sometimes sits with its eyes on Breivik while talking. On the keyboard of the portable PC is Breivik his article posted in front of him. Sørheim have stopped to read the feature article, and note on the MacBook’s.
Anders Breivik Behring: – And then it was obviously a big misjudgment on my part. [Pause] So there’s an insinuation that I have inherited insanity from [an older family member]. – [Breivik talking about this person illness and believe this is misguided and no psychiatric diagnosis, but that he could only be strict with their environment] – And this has been communicated in a way to give the impression of a hereditary mental illness that I have picked up, and that is of course not. – So there is no one in my family who have had mental illness. [See his papers.] It is inconceivable amount of information, I do not know how much time I spend on it, for now the officials even read the section. But I know that about 80% of calls are fictional, and this is at least some of the examples of it. – What I do want to address is the forensic psychiatric sector in Norway. I do not know how seriously to take it. Everyone knows what happened after verdenskrig.Det was not only Hamsun who ended up in mental hospitals. Many were sent to a mental hospital, even though they were only antikommunnister. – This is something that is a Norwegian forensic psychiatry. No reckoning with what happened after the 2nd World War II in relation to the political extremes.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – How many people are we talking about? [Breivik: Approximately fifteen people, I do not know exactly the names.]
Anders Breivik Behring: – [Holden: - Where do you have the information come from?] I do not wish to tell. – [Holden: - What was dangerous about it? ] This is something I have from a source that I trust. It was thirteen others who were sent to a mental hospital. – It is. [Holden: - When did you get that information?] I have tried to gain access to the forensic psychiatric reports after 2 World War II. – However, for various unknown reasons, the Norwegian government made it difficult to publish, but I want to challenge the press to find out how many were sent to a mental hospital.
Prosecutors Svein Holden – I think probably the press has already taken up the glove, Breivik. [Breivik: - I think absolutely not.] I think we should keep us here. I have seen historians who have gone pretty hard towards what you mean. And it turns out that it was not as many as were sent to a mental hospital. – That there were so many ministers who were sent to a mental hospital. [Breivik: - How many was it?] It was not near as many as you say.
Anders Breivik Behring: – Since you believe you have read it. How many then? [Holden: - Now it is I who ask the questions here] – You claim that what I say is wrong. Then the more you say what is right . [Holden: I do not say anything, I] [discuss back and forth about who should answer what] – This is something that Norwegian forensic psychiatry has never made any settlement with.
Prosecutors Svein Holden – I want to conclude with a question of exactly this. What do you think is the reason why you have this information, while others do not?
Anders Breivik Behring: – That’s in nobody’s interest to not disclose what happened after the 2nd World War II. There were many undemocratic decisions that went against human rights. – .. passed and this is some of the dirty secrets of Norway from the war that many do not want to appear. The reason for psychiatric reports after 65 years still not been declassified. – And then, in principle, all documents deklausuleres after 60 years, but these psychiatric reports, they are still not deklausulert.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – [Breivik: - And it can be a challenge to you.] So it’s the exclusive source of your who have had access to this?
Anders Breivik Behring: – I guess no one has access to the fifteen reports because they are restricted. But I have been told that it applies to fifteen people and not just Hamsun.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – What is it about this source that makes you trust the person enough?
Anders Breivik Behring – I’ve had limited time, but I want to try to dig more after the trial, but I have not had the time now.
Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh: – [Holden: - No, but, we can move on.] Since you mention Hamsun, if I say to you that Hamsun was not declared insane, what do you do?
Anders Breivik Behring: – That is correct. But at the time thought they had impaired mental abilities. It is to be irrational. And he was at this hospital for six months. But the others had to be there for several years. He was one of those who were lucky.
Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh: – Lucky in what sense then? [Breivik: That he was released after six months.] – Were you aware that he was considered sane?
Anders Breivik Behring – He was branded with the fact that he had impaired mental abilities. [Engh: - Yes, and it is not to be irresponsible.] In my source, it is.
Anders Breivik Behring: – [Breivk smiles slightly] I have read his book. have you read his book? [Breivik ask Bejer Engh] The second point, it was just a renowned psychiatrist who was a Marxist-Leninist and was used extensively by the press, they supported the use of mental hospitals against political dissidents. – And they supported the Soviet Union’s use of this and Reppe Gaard drove on until the 90th century. He was not fired. You would think that the great doyen of law psychiatry, Kringlen, would require his retirement after this became known. – But instead, then defended Kringlen him. And that says a lot about Norwegian forensic psychiatry that people who support the use of mental hospitals for political dissidents, not get fired, but will continue to hold.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – [Breivik: - So I think that .. (interrupted by Holden)] Are you afraid to be a number in the series of political dissidents are put into the madhouse?
Anders Breivik Behring: – No I do not think so. Now, I talk about Norwegian forensic psychiatry and that it should be in their interest to come to terms with himself. At least try to make a record that there is no right psychiatrists today who are using mental hospitals for political dissidents. – This is totally questioning the people as it does not work as just psychiatrists. But then the question that Husby asked me earlier. He wondered why I had claimed that they had lied. – And it’s a good question that I really wish that the two even to answer, but what I think happened is that the psychiatric assessment was too close to the event so that they were severely emotionally troubled, and what I think is that They concluded that “the person who has done this, he must be crazy.” – They did not understand that a normal person could do this. It tells us two things, and this is what I think – one is that they lack the expertise to assess the politically motivated violent, such as IRA, ETA and al-Qaeda. – They lack the expertise to assess such individuals. I asked themselves. Have you ever considered a politically motivated violent man? – It had not. So I just think that they were emotionally attached to this, combined with the fact that they lacked expertise in politically motivated violence men. – The two factors contributed to the fact concluded very early and spent all that time to really support that conclusion.
Prosecutors Svein Holden: – Have you seen other hypotheses for you?
Anders Breivik Behring: – No it is relevant to talk about what I think. This is what I think. [Holden: - You mentioned other hypotheses in this feature article] – I got it. And it’s a five possible explanations. But this is what I believe, so there’s no point in taking up the other four options. [Holden: You should not ignore that I think it might be interesting to discuss.] – The other possibility, if you want me to comment on it, it is the ideological incompatibility … – [Holden: - What do you mean?] It is really something that is not completely unknown in other countries. For example, the Soviet Union was known for putting political dissidents in mental hospitals. For example, they put into Datsik the mental hospital. – [Holden: - But when you say that you have your political point of view ..] [Breivik interrupts] The theory is that they represent two completely unknown worlds in mind. – For example I have written in my compendium that Mandela is a marxisitsk sterols, grate, and was actually the terrorist leader for 20 years before he was imprisoned, and that was why he was imprisoned. – And his organization that he led, is responsible for many fatalities. And as for example the Sørheim live in South Africa and she looks at Nelson Mandela as a great hero.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Did she tell you? [Breivik - I interpreted it that way at least] What was it about her that gave you the opportunity to interpret her there?
Behring Anders Breivik: – One can say that most people believe it. There are very few who believe the opposite. [Holden: - When you rely on a general conclusion and not her interpretation] It was an interpretation. [Holden: What was it about Sørheim that caused you to believe that she symptapiserte with Nelson Mandela?] – We spoke with over 13 calls and I learned a lot about them, and it is the information I have. – [Holden: - Was his name mentioned in conversations?] I can get back to what we originally talked about, which is incompatibility. I will not say much about what I think …. [interrupted] – Why should I talk about what I think? [Holden: - What is the reason why you wrote it?]
Behring Anders Breivik: – There are five possible solutions to why they’ve lied, which I have identified more than 200 lies [Holden: But what is the reason why we should not go into the last three?] – Because I do not consider it appropriate to support something I believe.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – [Breivik: - This is to list the five possible solutions.] Do you fear that people will have incorrect perceptions of you if we enter the last three?
Behring Anders Breivik: – If you think I mean it. It is important that what I mentioned in my place … [Holden: - Do you write often things you do not mean?] – Eg this with what is right, and what you advocate. So there are some who believe that this is delusion, while others think that it’s right, while others believe again that it is a lie. But these are opportunities you have not mentioned at all. When is it not necessary that I mention five possibilities?
prosecutor Svein Holden: – No, but I suppose I can take also take a closer look at what I would like to read up. – You touch this with emotional imbalance and incompatibility. In paragraph two on page two, you have highlighted the fear of incompatibility.
Behring Anders Breivik: – It goes on to protect the community about what they believe is harmful ideology. [Holden: - So there is a third point here. Economic dependence. Can you tell us a bit about it?] – It is that they rely on government contracts, so they are not objective. If one is in private practice, then one is objective. If one relies økonomsik is not objective. – No, this is not something I believe in, these are just possibilities. This is only possible solutions. And what I believe in, that’s what I talked about earlier.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – What about number four, which is the highlight “revenge”?
Behring Anders Breivik: – There is something in it. If you are considering medication fundamentalist [Breivik mention someone by name], he gives the impression that he wants to pump me full of chemicals because he thinks I deserve it.
Behring Anders Breivik: – And before then Yvonne Larsen mast that I should be medicated, I can not or should go umedisinert. It is of course an understandable revenge motive behind it, she wants me to suffer, and I have great forsåtelse for.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Would you suffer if you did drugs?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Yes, I had it. [Holden: - In what way?] I have received hundreds of letters, and I have received a letter from someone who says he is right-oriented in a Swedish mental hospital. He has explained the effect of the chemicals he was exposed. It’s absolutely terrible, and he describes it as chemical lobotomering. – And he describes it as very cruel. He can not work. He is half drugged all the time. He drools at the table. It is not a fate that .. it’s pretty bad really.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Is it the situation you fear that you may end up in? [Breivik: I think everyone had feared it, really.] – Then there is a fifth point that you are on now. A commission from the government? [Breivik: - It is pretty well known that it happened after the 2nd World War I, on the orders of the Labour Party.]
Behring Anders Breivik: – They want … National collection had left many Labor people in jail. They wanted to take revenge, and almost gave directives that some of them to be put into a mental hospital. – But this is not a theory I believe. [Holden: - You write on here that Husby and Sørheim was contacted by a representative from the government where they were told they had to protect the community ideology] This is not something I believe in it all again. It is one of five possible solutions. There’s no point in describing something which I have said I do not believe.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – For many will perhaps say that this sounds pretty, what to say, people, pretty crazy?
Behring Anders Breivik: – And that is why I do not believe in it. [Holden: - What is the reason why you write it?] I have listed five possible solutions. I believe in the first, that the evaluation was too close to the event. – They have probably become emotionally attached. I do not believe in any of the other. It is part of Norwegian history and it has happened in Norway on several occasions previously.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Is your perception of these five points affected by the psychiatrists sitting in the room here?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Not necessarily. Maybe. [Holden: - In what way?] No, it is the in the diagnosis of these two that they think I have paranoid delusions, and when one is the extra care. But I have no trouble explaining this. When one lists five possible solutions, I think one could not at all. And the reason I listed the first No. 1, then it’s because I believe it most. – It is that it is the one I think most, so I put it first. The reason I took it as number five, is that it is the least likely. [Holden: - But if you think that this sounds a little crazy, that a government should have called Husby and Sørheim ...?] – It is not very crazy when you know it’s been psychiatrists Reppesgård still practice as a legal counselor. – And he was not the only one. It’s the worst. [Holden: As I understand it can be challenging for common people to believe that a government contacts directly psychiatrists directly]. It’s not something I believe in myself. but it is worth mentioning that there are just psychiatrists today that supports the use of drugs against political dissidents. – [Holden: - Why take it at all, then, would not it be better to drop it?] No, it’s because this is actually a part of Norwegian history and Norwegian forensic psychiatry has not dealt with themselves. – And it’s really to support it, that they should deal with themselves. They should have a clear line if they detect a court psychiatrist who practice this, that he should be removed. – [Holden: - Are you considering this as a heavy argument when you wrote it than when you do today?]. I mentioned it as number one because that is what I believe. But I mentioned it to substantiate the claim that legal psychiatry in Norway should go through the fifteen cases. They should clarify why they intervened.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Then Engh a question, and so it might be natural to take a break eventually. We will probably report of two, and some clarifying questions about the relationship between report one and two. [Engh: You said that you were istad bit unhappy that they had blacked out parts of the feature article you sent to newspaper houses?]
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is something that has come out, but the vast, vast majority are censored.
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna: Judge Wenche Arntzen said that the right to take a break at. 13.30.
prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: – But when you wrote this, did you want them to touch it? [Breivik: - Not necessarily pushing it, but make it available in any way.]
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Bejer Engh: - When we talk about the five different alternative in this letter. Did you have any thoughts about what they would do on you when they read it] If it is seen in the same setting. [Bejer Engh: - If I had read this how they would have seen you then?] I think that in many places in the world as mental hospital used against political dissidents. – Norway has the done on several occasions previously, and have not dealt with it. It had probably been a discussion about just that, but it is important to understrekat that I have not supported this view.
prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: – And it’s not so long since you wrote it. Has something happened in that period that have affected your position in relation to these five options?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Not really. There are five possible options, I have written down what I think happened.
VG: – The right to take a break at 13:30….
Original article: Dag 8, del 2, ord for ord: Breivik svarer om utilregnelighet
Google translation [edited for clarity]:
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: The Court is set after the break. Holden will now go over to talk to Breivik on the second expert report.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – As negotiations continue. When I go on the basis that you have talked about time. [Holden: - We have, and added a schedule]. Then it must be observed. You will consider whether to drill further forward in points which are conveyed.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Breivik, before we go on to the next statement: Is there anything you would like to add?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I would like to spend the rest of the day of rest, but it’s not appropriate for judges, since they already have the documents.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – [Breivik: - But, yes ...] Then we can move on to the statement number two. How did you experience the other observation?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have not had much time to go through it. As with the observation by Husby and Sørheim went well. There were no problems. So it went okay. [Holden: - So, we have also realized over a period you had much contact with a team from Dikemark?]
Anders Behring Breivik: – Right, but assumes stone not sure I wanted to talk with the two was that the new talks were recorded on tape, so that all the statements I made were to be the tried and that they put a little more in ideology. – But it’s true that the court ordered forced observations, and when I had not much choice, but it went well.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – How did it on a daily basis?
Behring Anders Breivik: – When started the day at eight o’clock every day. When people were locked into a room with four psychiatric nurses who assessed you and took the initiative for dialogue. They wanted to know everything. – Then I decided that I should talk to them as much as they want, and work together. And it was a very interesting period, and it was a nice time too because I have lived in an isolation cell for seven months. And considering that I am a social person, so I think it was pretty nice. – [Holden: - You used the word interesting?] Yes, I learned a lot about psychiatry and I asked a lot about how the system was in Norway. I am interested in psychiatry and how it works in Norway. – So I asked a lot about it. [Holden: - Did you get much response?] Did it. – [Holden: - What about the report that the two have made. What do u about it?] As the other was of course a thorough report and I’m disagree with the conclusion of it, but if you see it in the setting they work in so it was as expected.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – What do you think about the setting they were in? [Breivik: I think that it was expected that they should make a report and it would have been unthinkable that they said something positive about me in the report, because their careers had been over, of course.]
Behring Anders Breivik: – But based on the setting it was, so I figured it was as it were. I suspected that they would come with the … What should I say, the two diagnoses. – [Holden: - What was the reason why you suspect it?] Because in no matter what country a person who breaks a government building, the port in anti-social. – Dissocial in Norwegian. It is impossible to get away from the diagnosis if one is a politically motivated violent man. – Because when you have declared war against the establishment. so you do not need enough not escape regardless. But what I have explained to them that I have seen all rtiden emeg the narcissist himself, but not pathological narcissist. There is something called forretningmannsnarsissist. – I think very many people are narcissists in Norway and I would actually argue that it is a good trait, as long as it is within normal limits. But there is something called pathological narcissism, and they think I have it. – And I think that it is not true. I think there is a narcissism that I and many other Norwegians have, within the limits. – And when it comes to a dissocial diagnosis, they have assumed that I’m anti-social because I tagged when I was little and because I chose to do what I did. – [Holden: - You said a businessman-narssissimen versus diseased?] Businessman has a nickname. [Holden: - Where have you come across it?] It was something we discussed. – And in addition, they have given any other reasons. But they have not mentioned is that a person who very much has the ability to collaborate with others and who have run a company with seven employees … But there are many examples I can come up with. – But then I understand that if you have declared war, the car that you matter to be called anti-social. But I do not agree with some of the diagnoses.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – What do you think about getting a label narcissist and dissocial?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Well, I think probably not politically motivated violence are men outside an antisocial diagnosis. It was expected. – There being labeled as a narcissist, what thoughts do you feel about that?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is as I said earlier. Most successful people in Norway, is narcissistic. It is within the normal range. So you have those who are morbidly narcissistic that they think I am, and that is not at all. – A person who is willing to sacrifice their lives for a cause, and others, do not set themselves the highest. It’s clear. 22. July was a suicide operation. A narcissist loves himself and the highest priority to themselves and would not sacrifice themselves for something.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – If it’s so obvious, what do you think is the reason why the two have not picked up there?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It makes you ask them. [Holden: - Do you have any thoughts on that? Breivik draws on it.] Yes, I have discussed it with them and they disagree with me. They think that I did what I did to get PR for my own person, but it is a sick statement. I do not even expected to survive the day. – [Holden: - I'll grab a third element ...] Something that I can say is something I already said at Utøya is that if I survive Utøya, comes every day to be a nightmare. – There I was completely unaware of. It is not setting any world envies me who I am now. Although there are a lot of PR around my person, I can count on one hand the positive written about me. – It’s not something a person wants to be in that setting. [Holden: Do all the days after July 22 have been as difficult?] – It is a burden, but I think enough, which …. What to say … Provides an accurate picture of what awaits you if you do something like that, I guess he Merah in Toulouse. He thought that if he survives the surgery, there is m
uch suffering that awaits. And he chose not to survive. – And the same applies to the two in NSU (Mundlos and Uwe Uwe Böhnhardt) in Germany, they thought that if we get caught for this, come every day to be a nightmare and they chose not to survive.
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Holden: - Are your days a nightmare?] I can not say that every day it is, to bear the responsibility they have done, there is a big responsibility. I do not expect to get some mercy because I had no mercy. I knew it would be tough. It has nothing to do with narcissism to do, but rather the opposite.
prosecutor Svein Holden – I should like I was inside adds a third element from the statement number two. We have talked about the two diagnoses you have been assigned. So we return to a consideration of the two experts. I’ll read a review that the experts write about Knight Templar and the subsequently ask you a question. – [Holden reads from the expert report: "... He has always known that the whole idea of Knights Templar have sprung from his own imagination. "] Is Knights Templar only in your imagination?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, it does not. There is a real network and the six people I have described, they exist. [Holden: - What do you think that the experts describe what they do - that have emerged out of your imagination?] – It is well … they relate to the investigation and police have made a conclusion. Since they have not arrested anyone as you have concluded that when it can not exist. If one uses the logic that did not exist before I do the 2nd. July. – But then one sees that the police have not followed up, “lead late” that they have because they do not believe there are others. They have not questioned anyone in Serbia or Liberia, or followed up facebook track or the 8,000 email addresses. – So I respect that there is something you have to stand for. I had not wanted to be a police spokesman when they appear, for it is something that’s going to happen. – But I understand that the two experts dealing with the police and their investigation. I have no trouble understanding. – [Holden: - Do you think they are related to what you have told them?] It may well be that they have listened to what I have said, and that they have relied on because of it.
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna: Holden asks Breivik what he thinks that the experts concluded that the Knights Templar do not exist in reality. – They relate well just to the police investigation. Since you do not have arrested others, have you concluded that the Knights Templar can not exist. If you use that logic existed nor did I until 22 July.
Behring Anders Breivik: – But I also understand that the police have a mandate, and that is to stay calm in the population. What you say is not necessarily what you know, but I understand that the primary mandate is to preserve the peace.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – In the period ahead of what I read up, then it says: “The fact that he will run has invented a contemporary vision, can not be understood as a psychosis.”] It says that by their own volition have invented a contemporary vision?
Behring Anders Breivik: – That’s what they think, yes, that’s right. [Holden: - It means that is not correct?] That’s right. [Bejer Engh: - Why do you think they write this?] – I think they write it because they believe in it. [Holden: - When I leave statement number two, is there anything you want to add?] – It’s just one more thing. When the goal is the label of disease do you manage to get the two diagnoses, and call it heavy psychiatry, but it is just a game anyway, and I do not really have any further comments, I think.
prosecutor Svein Holden – I have a few questions rounded, which in itself is aimed at both statements. Then I wonder, did you tell the same to both expert teams?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I said the same thing, but I was probably more pompous in preparation to Sørheim and Husby. As I was facing the police.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – What was portrayed as more pompous on your part?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It was just what I have described earlier. Instead of saying that it is a matter of few individuals in Europe, I described it as a pan-European military order and used the pompous words instead of using the words that I used for the past. – And that was something that I found myself and which I communicated to the police even before the report of the first declaration came. It was one month before the first report came, so I told it.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Are there other conditions that can vary in your contact with the two expert witnesses?
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Breivik think long now] I chose this way to produce it. I told some of the compendium, all that I told the police. What I communicated to the Husby and Sørheim is the same as I told the police.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – For not too long ago, before the break as you answered in a fairly direct spørsmnål me that bushido was the most effective strategy for the preparation of 22 July. I understood you right? – [Breivik: - Meditation, yes.] Yes. And “bushido”, it is a central part of the meditation? – [Breivik: - Well, it's something of the same principles used, so you can say it.] I see that it is referred to bushido in the second declaration on a couple occasions. You mentioned the word “bushido” to Husby and Sørheim?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, I did not. However, I described the meditation and I described exactly the same thing I said to the police. I have been a systematic avemosjonalisering. – And when I hear these two songs. So everything is explained to the experts in a thorough manner. So they have had very much information and so they have chosen to construct the talks based on that information.
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna: The alleged meditation technique Breivik now issue in court. Bushido is the name of the strict moral teachings and the lifestyle that applied to the Japanese samurai, and can be translated as “warrior’s path” in Norwegian.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Bushido, it is mentioned in your manifesto? [Breivik: - No, it's probably not.] It’s probably not. When were you familiar with this technique? – [Breivik: - In 2006.] If you deem it important, what is the reason that it is not mentioned in the compendium or dialogue with the first expert?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have described it. What you say is wrong. The word Bushido is not mentioned. However, detailed descriptions of the meditation technique is described. – But the only thing I did not mention the word “bushido.”
prosecutor Svein Holden: – The first time it is mentioned to the police during interrogation 20 December. After a declaration is made and after the media ban was lifted. Studied whether bushido after the declaration No. 1 was issued?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Eh, what I have conveyed is from the knowledge I have obtained previously, so it’s primarily it. [Holden: - Primarily it?] I have also read more about Japan in prison, but I was aware of bushido long before. – [Holden: - You read about Bushido in prison?] It is not possible to read about Japan without reading about Bushido.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – So you’ve read about bushido in prison. Have you read about bushido after the first expert statement?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is possible. Maybe, maybe not, I do not know. – [Holden: - Is this something you have come on later?] No, it’s just going back in the compendium. The reason I do not brukjte word was that many cultural conservatives would react to it. Meditation is the same, but I did not mention the word.
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Holden: - So it was a deliberately chosen by you] I felt I had to explain it and justify it. Then I have to explain where it comes from and why I chose to write about it.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – Did you feel the need to explain and justify this to Thurs the 1st expert?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I explained it in detail for those, but I did not use the word “bushido.” [Holden: - What were you told about meditation to them, then?] – The fact that the essential strategy I had chosen to avemosjonalisere myself, was to meditate. This I did by listening to songs and video.
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Holden: - Are there elements of Bushido] The contents of meditation, one can choose for yourself, but meditation is important in Japan.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – I have some questions, mainly to the first report. Breivik, I’ll start with the conclusion of the first report. It concluded that the more you are delusional and the criminally insane. – This means of course, as you know, that if the court put it because you can not be punished in the ordinary sense, but will be transferred to compulsory psychiatric care. – You have said little about this in your feature article about what you think about the conclusion. Can you tell us about it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is well that a political activist, is the worst that can happen is to end up in a mental hospital because it will delegitimere everything you stand for. – But I know the course well known that in many ways it is more comfortable to be in a mental hospital, and therefore it is that most accept the verdict. – Without trying to fight it. The only exception is perhaps the political activists who will fight against it. But most people will probably accept it, for it is known as a better punishment.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – In talks with Husby and Sørheim along the way, did you think that it could reach such a conclusion?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No I did not think so. I did not think they would, what to say, abuse the trust I showed them. Had I had any thoughts about what I would not talk to them about it.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – One of the first report is based on a so-called Skid-a test that is part of psychometrics-assessment. This should be the experts say more about, but you want to visit some of the observations they have drawn into these assessments. – And it is module B, psychotic and associated symptoms. 210. Here, the experts emphasized that “observanden [...] believe that in very many cases have been noticed.” – He believes that his environment, both now and previously [including Breivik's childhood, involvement in the Progress Party], was noted as very special and that everyone remembers him as extraordinary. What do you think about this?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I remember when I talked with the two as I recall we we would find keys to a person. I behaved pretty nice to them. I was very conscious and with confidence. It annoyed themselves into very large extent. – Especially when I told him about the money that I had generated. I found out how to press the buttons to the Husby and I did it a couple of times, and I noticed that he was greatly annoyed. – And that’s probably “thanks to you,” the wording that came. – [Bæra: - But you were there, you were full special?] I never said that. I’ve said the opposite. I have said that people had probably a good impression of me, but they certainly do not remember me. They have invented many assertions to support the conclusions they came with. – That because there are a lot of fiction and I’ve never said that. [Hein Bæra: - To be specific, who are they?] For example, the commitment I had politically, I spent very little time there, and do not think they even remember me, most of them.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – And how were you in school then?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Those who know me, those I have known all along and I have had contact with. Others remember me certainly not. – [Hein Bæra: - Were you an extraordinary and unique] I was a normal person I think.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – So we bit the next section, which you scored high on that deals with persecutory delusions. It says that you feel threatened with death by the Labour Party’s policy. – “He thinks he himself, friends and family are facing imminent extinction of Genocide and displacement from home.” What do you mean that you are facing a civil war and that you are threatened with extinction?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have never, I know what a normal conventional civil war is. The fact that we have people with guns running around in the streets, as we see in Syria now. What I have described as civil war phase, one is that it is a terrorist attack every three years, maybe. – I do not think it’s a civil war in Europe now, of course, one can look at the Luton and highly stressed zones in Europe, where you can say it’s civil war conditions.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – But this is not Norway, Breivik. There is talk of “death threats by the Labour Party policy, and believe there is civil war.”
Behring Anders Breivik: – I do not think there is civil war. As described there, it is completely wrong. I disagree with the policies of the Labor Party, and is willing to fight. I do not think there are some that are immediately threatened. I or my family is not. So it is fictitious reasons. – I have explained quite thoroughly that we are approaching a civil war. But it takes quite a long enough time, perhaps decades.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – What do you think could be the reason? What can be said for this to be persecutory delusions?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have explained them thoroughly what I mean by Phase 1, 2, 3 civil war. And I have explained to them that the phase we’re in now, it’s asymmetric warfare, a terrorist attack now and then. I have explained to them that we are not in a civil war, but that it is approaching a civil war. – [Hein Bæra: - Did you say the same thing to ... you said the same thing both times] I’ve said the same to both, yes.
defender Vibeke Hein consequences: – The next thing is grandiose delusions. “What he says about power and who will live and dead for Norway, and that his organization will take over power in Europe and be appointed as regent.” How can they come to the conclusion then?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have never said that I want to be ruler or leader or anything, so it is pure fiction. As I’ve said so many times before I looked at 22 July as a suicide attack. I did not expect to survive. – And if you look at the interviews that I’ve done with the police, it is described again and again. What I think has happened, however, is that they have gone into the compendium, which reads an essay about the monarchy’s future, where I said that we are royalists, but we will not accept a traitor king in the future. We believe that the royal family should be apolitical, and that they should not be flagging support for multiculturalism in any way. – If they choose to do so, it is very unwise, but we hope it changes. – [Hein Bæra: - What about this with the regent?] It is not true at all and it sounds completely crazy. I have not said anything nearby either.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – Have you considered that? [Breivik: No, what has been up has been the Guardian Council, and I said that I believe that the Nationalists would seize power in Europe, in several countries at least, and that it may dekntes the establishment of a fokterråd elelr accordingly.
Behring Anders Breivik: - A person who has done something so terrible that I have done, would be a political leper. And no one will cooperate with a person who has done something so terrible. - And I am of course aware, I have said too. It's fictitious claims. [Hein Bæra: - When you wrote the compendium, wrote about the new kingdom and the new rulers, did you yourself in your mind then?] – Absolutely not. I did not expect to survive 22 July. [Hein Bæra: - When you talk about this Guardian Council, which may have a role in Europe. Are the Knights Templar?] – I do not think a person KT Network or al-Qaeda will have a crucial role. They are simply barbaric, but they will have the opportunity to influence developments. We have seen in the Middle East. – They will never manage a country. But for our part, we want to build a nationalist al-Qaida in Norway. For example, KT Network. To fight for our viewpoints. But I think that with the barbaric methods we choose, we will never be able to get the power, but we may be able to influence, I do not know. – But for my part, only to contribute to the action. [Hein Bæra: - What is the ideal goal of this action?] – There are four subjects that are mentioned earlier. Deploying the compendium, witch hunt by moderate conservative culture and responsibility for those who should be held accountable. There are three of them.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – This witch hunt, what would it end up in? What is the goal of a witch hunt?
Behring Anders Breivik: – When moderate cultural conservative and moderate nationalists find this witch hunt that has been made at 22 July, which means that in principle every person who criticizes multiculturalism being branded as extremists. – I call it a witch hunt. For example, Stoltenberg speech underlined it. All those who are against multiculturalism, he stamped it as extremists. So have some of the press followed, still no ridicule, censorship and a part of this hunt. – We are going a little further at the next one is emphasized. The somatic delusions. He confirmed to be concerned about their appearance.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – “… and therefore have considered plastic surgery and dentistry.” Are you selfish?
Behring Anders Breivik: – [He smiles.] So there were two reasons why I carried a plastic surgery when I was 22 years. One was that I was very vain, then, before I was 25 And the second is that I had been attacked by Muslims. But I was also very vain. – Since 2005 I have not been in vain at all. [Hein Bæra: - You have not been terrible since then?] – [Hein Bæra: - You were more vain than in 2005] In 2006, I decided to go the way I have done and have not been vain since. – But if you compare a person from Oslo West, with the one that comes from the village, they will Oslo be seen as vain, although he might in his own eyes is not. – But I believe that I have not been vain since 2005. – [Hein Bæra: - How much do you spend on clothes?] I have not bought a single garment for 2005. So all the clothes I have today, I bought in 2005 or earlier. – [Hein Bæra: - Other things that you use, cosmetics, solarium?] I have not made any purchases since 2005. I have not been vain since 2005.
defender Vibeke Hein consequences: – A new theme as it is also a continuation of what you have mentioned, this is the responsibility of determining who shall live and who should die. [Reading from the report]. – So you do not repeat what you said when the prosecutor referred to the a-, b-and c-charts in the compendium, but what you have said in interviews that may have led to these conclusions?
Behring Anders Breivik: – You could say that 60-70 percent of what you said now is fictional. They have combined some truths with fictional sentences, so it sounds irrational out. All of what I have said now is that 22 July will be seen as the most deadly and successful operation in Europe since World War II. I have said. – That because it is a fact. But I have also said that striving to become a perfect knight is to strive to be the perfect foot soldier. The remark concerning the completely wrong.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – Does that mean you do not consider you as the most perfect knight for World War II?
Behring Anders Breivik: – The most perfect foot soldier for 2 World War II? Eh … [Smiles.] It could … With a view to be a militant nationalist, I am enough. That’s 8 different fronts you can work on, and one of them is politics, and I’m the totally insignificant. But violent resistance, I am enough. – But on the other seven, I am insignificant.
defender Vibeke Hein consequences: – If you claimed that “he is [set] to reign in Europe”?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have never said, and it is a ridiculous assertion. I did not expect to survive July 22. [Bæra: It is a matter of judgment about whether you have høreselshallusinasjoner or not. There you have responded in the negative? [Reading from the report]. What can you say about that?] – That’s right, yes, first of all, do not. It is true that I have not wanted to talk about how I have communicated with the others, for obvious reasons, but it has nothing to do with how they conclude.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – communicate with others? [Breivik: - No, I have not communicated with anyone after 22 July.]
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: Carrying out how the experts have concluded that Breivik perceive themselves as a perfect knight. He denies that he has said this, but points out that after its discretion has conducted the most successful attack since the war. Bæra want to know if that means he is the most perfect photo soldier after WWII. – Most perfect photo soldier after World War II? he asks and think about. Then he smiles broadly to the defender. – It could be, he says so.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – So there is a point that is perhaps difficult for yourself to respond to. «« Observanden score inclusive of incoherent speech “[Hein Bæra says Breivik spores of different themes and that is what is perceived] – “… Whatever the topic under discussion.” The fact that you keep returning to the theme of why you did what you did July 22, why do it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I guess because it is the theme that you are talking about now. And I am very interested in politics, of course. But that does not mean that you have problems with it of course. The fact that I have cut off contact with friends after 22 July, for example, to, it’s not.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – In addition, I do not think I have any more problems than others to discuss several things and then go back to the first. So I have absolutely no association disturbances. – Your friends will, (…) what do you think they are going to respond?
Anders Breivik Behring – I talked a lot about the policy to explain to them within certain limits as to what will happen, without really telling anything.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – You told my colleague Lippestad, 2 day here in court, I think it was, that these guys were out once a month and that you then went out on a place Majorstua.
Behring Anders Breivik: – It was well, we did not talk much about politics, then, we talked about other things. They had their own interests and I was interested in it, so we spoke well of it.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – Can you name examples? [Breivik: - You can talk to - and the future and career opportunities, all that is common to talk about. Topical and funny things.
Behring Anders Breivik: - Most of them have even said on several occasions that I am a fun person that I am fun to be with. And that's because there is a lot of fun together.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - So you've got has gone from a life where you have been in relations with other people, as others generally are, then you were put in isolation when you were arrested on 22 Utøya July. How has it been the first time?
Behring Anders Breivik: - Studdert is impossible to simulate it, and prepare for it. So ... it is difficult to adapt, but after a few weeks went fine. And .. I think I've handled it better than most. It's tough to sit in an isolation cell for seven months. It is.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - In the period up to the observation of you started, you can say who you had contact with, for you have in practice been isolated.
Behring Anders Breivik: - I have not had contact with someone before that, only health care professionals and advocates. No one else.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - And then came the observation team. When you say "I am still at this point, but talking about other things." What did you talk about then?
Behring Anders Breivik: - I found the more that they had very specific types of humor. Which is quite similar to the humor of the prison officers as well, which is a pretty good and that I share. - Pretty rough humor. It was a great social time. We talked about everything. - The star airport to consider myself in most settings. They talked about everything from politics to completely different things. [Bæra: Can you be specific on those things?] – I was very curious about how their workplace was and they were probably a bit cautious, they were not allowed to talk about some things. But we talked about everyday things as well. It was something they could not talk about, but … We talked about everything and nothing. – [Hein Bæra: - Is humor important to you?] Humor is very important. [Hein Bæra: - Why?] It’s … it is difficult to explain. It is a central part of life as I see it, so it is very important. – So it is very important. [Hein Bæra: - We shall be a final point within the parameters within the test, you score inclusive of weakness of the will]
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – And then it says: “As he over a period of five years are not able to live alone, you need practical help and in very small extent have interacted with others.”
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Bæra: - What do you think when you hear this?] I know me not again at all. I run a company before, has had 7 employees and I have lived in shared housing. The only reason I stayed with the mother, was that I would spend the most money in Compendium-writing. – And when did it cost … there had been a bit silly to rent an apartment in Tiedemann’s Gate to 15,000 dollars a month. It has nothing to do with the ability to live alone to do. – [Hein consequences: - It is the time after 2005 ...] [Breivik interrupts] It intentionally weakness is a ridiculous assertion. A person who has carried out what has happened has just proven the opposite.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – When you lived on the farm Vålstua, when did you live alone? [Breivik confirms] Who bought food then?
Behring Anders Breivik: – There is absolutely no problem living alone, and when I lived alone and did everything himself. – No, you cook, you do maintenance on the house inside and out, you clean. One does whatever is necessary to live alone. It is entirely unproblematic. – [Hein Bæra: - When you lived with your mother. Contributed to a household where?] In this setting she wanted to do a lot. She cooked a meal each day. That’s because she wanted to do it. It had not been a problem if I did it. – But we actually talked together only once per day. And it was not because I failed to do things themselves, but she wanted to do it, some of those things. – Some of the things, but it was the stage where I almost was not home either, so …
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – But there’s other things in a housing outside contact with the mother. Was this a condominium? [Breivik: - Yes, that's right. ] – In the neighborhood I know there were meetings of the housing cooperative would work. Who did it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – She was quite engaged. I helped her to formulate a letter and did some other things. But what I did in the stage … I gjrode quite a few other things that were more difficult and complicated than that. – [Bæra: - What are you thinking then?] No, because as something that they have referred to as “grandiose delusion,” was that I was in a group that was involved in “e-sport”. – It is, what to say, raiding in World of Warcraft at a high level. Where you are 25 people who have to do synchronized exercises together to overcome obstacles. – And we were Europe’s “grand” and it can be verified. It is extremely difficult and it depends on extensive cooperation between 25 people. – So what is described in the compendium, I was the leader of such a network in a while, and I think it was more demanding than a self-creation with seven employees, so demanding it is. – But I do not anticipate that some of the experts know what your sport is, and recognize the competitive level. – On Vålstua farm, there were some who came in and helped you?
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – Was it cleaner or someone acting for you, shoveling snow, and so on? [Breivik: - I did everything myself, it was not a problem] – So we will continue this self-made words. [Reading the examples from the report]. What can you say to that?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Let’s see, its probably covered in the chronicle. [Bæra: - But I'd rather hear you ... Have you made those words?] It is part of the ones that I have never uttered at all. And there are a few of those included in the compendium as suggestions. Bæra: But if they are included in the compendium as a suggestion, it is you who have composed them?
Behring Anders Breivik: – So nasjonaldarwinist was a word that was used extensively in the 1920s. – It is a familiar word. Others are used in various subcultures online. The only thing new is the knight, Chief Justice. Something I developed in the communication of the proposal in relation to the compendium. [Army: And why did you do that?] – It’s probably common for revolutionary groups that they have titles. For example, the Red Army Faction, used the “command” and some of these guys use their own names on it, such as “mujahedin”, that is something that is common to use the revolutionary organizations. – It was just a suggestion really. It is not an existing system, it was just a suggestion. [Hein Bæra: - Another word you've used that is not normal, is "martyr estate gift." What does it mean?] – To comment on what you said earlier. Grand Master and so on are taken from the original Knights Templar. – Some of it is actually from the original. Chief Justice is from the British and Norwegian legal system. There are words that are already being used. But what you asked for now … [Army: How many do you have invented, and why did you do that?] That’s only the Chief Justice, and the composition of it. However, each of which is not much. – No, it’s not a neologisms. There is something else entirely. There is a suggestion that others might discard or use.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – How can it be that here is the word?
Behring Anders Breivik: – There are many unfamiliar terms and words used in the subcultures that are not widely known. It’s understandable.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – But I interpret you so that it is wrong to call it neologisms? [Breivik confirmed].
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Bæra: - When we are going to court martyrdom gift.] There is a tradition which is taken from other cultures. In principal it was probably also for Christian cultures, if we look at the gift martyr judgment related to the original Knights Templar, so it’s a gift that will be forgiven all his sins, if you participate in the crusades. So it is a European tradition.
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna District Court Judge Wenche Arntzen wish to continue without a break, but ask to get more air in the ventilation system in the hall 250 – But at the lowest level, she asks. – And not too long, adding prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh to. The ventilation system in the new courtroom is dimensioned and prosecutors have previously expressing concern that the cold wind power will make them cold.
Behring Anders Breivik: – So is the second martyr estate gifts that come from such as bushido. When the soldiers of Japan during World War II to carry out a suicide attack. Among other things, could this be a belt, in which thousands of women had made one stitch each. There were many ritual gifts. – There were many ritual gifts they received. And also, yes there are many such things. With the knowledge that should die, many gifts. In connection with the war and conflicts in the world, the prostitute for soldiers to be on suicide missions or dangerous conflicts. – And it regarded as a gift, too. [Bæra: Is there a neologisms?] Absolutely not. Also in Islam there is a tradition of martyrdom estate gifts. – But there is more linked to the European tradition, then, the Christian tradition.
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: All four experts have now leaned back and study Breivik as he explains himself. Breivik still choose to look at the berries sit on the bench, defending the right of him, and not on the committee that sits in front of him. He alternates between looking at Bæra and to go through the chronicle he has before him in the witness box.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – I shall leave this, and shall in any other that I know a lot of questions, and as we have mentioned earlier. This is something you talk about how and why to use percentages. – Can you say anything about using percentage terms and what you mean by chance?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is not really to convey more knowledge in less time. It is an effective way to communicate a lot of information in a short time. I am fully aware that I use it often.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – Have you received feedback on it? Prior to this case? – [Breivik: - Yes, I have not really there.] Does it mean to express themselves effectively that it might not always so precise? When you say 30 percent, to 30 percent, or is it estimated?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is only an estimate. One assumption.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – Then I switched to something else. There is another side of the committee’s mandate was to assess recurrence risk and hazards criteria. I know you’ve talked to the experts on that.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – In the first expert report as it is said “that observanden also included experts in their killing tanks. It emerged after long conversations. [...] May mean that these are dynamic and can include new people in new contexts observanden find themselves in.. ” – “The experts assume that a similar development can happen in the future, and that people in observandens proximity can also be a part of his killing tanks.”
Behring Anders Breivik: – After 22 July I have been in contact with perhaps 200 police officers and 50 prison officers and perhaps a total of 300 people. I have never behaved threateningly towards any of them. I have been in no way threatening to any of the included Husby and Sørheim. – So it’s just fictional. I never threatened them. There is not a murder list. There were list before July 22, but not after. Of course, there was a list before, you have to know what goals you had to pick up. – I’ve never been threatening to someone after 22 July. So it is fictional.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – So we come to a rather large question. How do you see that your life will turn out for this trial?
Behring Anders Breivik: – it depends on. Whether I become chemically lobotomized. Otherwise I end up in jail for life. [Hein Bæra: - With chemically lobotomized you mean? I end up in the madhouse or prison for life.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - To take the jail first: What will you spend your time there?
Behring Anders Breivik: - I will try to write in prison, I will. But I knew before I started it here, that my life would end. So there I was prepared for.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - Was that why you were so keen to get access to the PC after 22 July? [Breivik: - It was.] – And if you transferred to psychiatric care what will you do?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I am not very worried about it now. I think the whole of Norway has seen that I am not irrational, so I’m not worried about it anymore. And I tend to be right.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – When I’m done with the questions I had.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – When I give the floor to aid lawyers, I ask you also customize the time remaining.
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – Did you feel anything yesterday when the autopsy report was presented? [Breivik: - Yes I was.]
Behring Anders Breivik: – I was indescribable grip of it. It’s brutal reports that provide gruesome details and you have to use much energy not to be affect it.
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – There are many that come with your facial expressions, and if you can express your feelings. How do you even your looks when you sit here?
Comments from VG Jarle Brenna Breivik’m sure he will be sentenced to prison – not forced mental health care. – I think all of Norway have seen that I am not irrational, so I’m not worried about it anymore. And I tend to be right, he said to questions from defense counsel Vibeke Hein berries. Breivik have all the way through the explanation smiled when he said things he thinks are funny.
Behring Anders Breivik: – I do not think people should have as large forvetinger that I break down. I have prepared me for 22 July in many years. I have prepared me for terrible pictures, even more terrible than the pictures I’ve seen. -
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – [Breivik: - In the investigation to be ready for the worst] You have been watching the images online? [Breivik: - I have seen all the pictures].
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have been given access to the images, and have seen all the pictures. I decide me to see everyone. And it’s horrible images.
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – But you describe you it is awful, but what do you feel about yourself?
Behring Anders Breivik: – The central issue is how the victims and their relatives feel … It is indescribable, I have deprived them of everything.
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – You are interested in words. Can you let someone else into it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – So. What I have done is contrary to human nature, and there are almost no words for the suffering and the pain I have caused to the victims and their families. Mm. It may not be described better than that. – But if I’m going to let it go over me and take it inside me, I’m not going to do, because then I would not have survived.
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – Do you see that you ever take it inside you? [Breivik: - I do not think so.] – Do you have a vulnerable side. Can you describe it? [Breivik: - I would not describe it. There is only one person who knows them] Who is it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is a friend of mine. [Lawyer: Is he Norwegian?] Yes, he is. [Lawyer: Is he in the network?] No, he’s not. – It’s of course … I can break down too, but … I probably would have done under certain circumstances. [Hallgren: - What are the circumstances when] I do not want to go into it. – [Hallgren: - Why not?] It is not appropriate, but it’s already passed, so people are aware of it. I’ve said it to the police.
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – In the conversation with Dry Ice in report number two, it will be asked if you have sensitive sides. When you say “The biggest fear is probably that people are not loved and that is mine and” Is it true?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Yes, I have said something similar. [Lawyer: Is it true] Yes, in a way.
Behring Anders Breivik: – Yes, previously, prior to 22 July, absolutely. But … So I answer yes to that. [Hallgren: - But after 22 July, you have been forsaken, it's that you say?] Yes. [By who?] Of all who were close to me. – Friends and family. So love is a word, but “appreciate” is perhaps a better word. Everyone wants to be loved instinctively, that one is born with and that’s maybe why you’re a good person. Therefore, it is difficult for many to walk the path I did, because you are demonized. Therefore, it is irrational to do what I did, are they just the most radical.
Lawyer Siv Hallgren: – Do I understand you right that you have been appreciated more than you have been loved?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Both are probably right, there is something of the same. – [Hallgren. - On 22 July, you had some thoughts about what the Knights Templar would think and feel about you?] It was Utøya and how … I have thought unimaginable a lot on it, how it would be perceived, if it would be perceived as a legitimate target or not. And now it is well known that about half believe that it was a legitimate target. – What I thought is that I have to do everything I can to not end up in a situation where I only have Utøya again. So I worked for 18 hours every day to not end there.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – A point from your answers to questions from Hallgren. You said that half of the network … [Breivik interrupts and says: - Now I'm not referring the KT network I was talking about but the militant nationalists]
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – Firstly, in relation to this the narcissistic disorder as the last two skkyndige have found. You answered that it was not likely that you were like that because you have put yourself in a situation that is very difficult now today. But have you at any time thought femover that you will achieve recognition?
Behring Anders Breivik: – 22 July is not about me, or if Utøya or ministries, it’s about the future of Norway, the way I see it.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – You have communicated that in the future will be some who look at your actions as legitimate. Is not that what you have communicated to the experts?
Behring Anders Breivik: – There are always some who see it as legitimate. I am passionate about it, but I do not see myself as important. I see the battle as important. It is important that I do not have harmed it. I am passionate about it.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – A completely different question. You have said in court and in interviews that before the first shots were fired at Utøya there were forces within you that said that this will not do. Have you had thoughts murder earlier that you have repressed?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is a bit wrong to regard them as murder plans. If you look at an Afghan soldier, then you can not accuse him of, that it is killing thoughts when he will kill anyone in Afghanistan.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – But you have had such thoughts before?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I have considered politically motivated violence even earlier. No sooner than when I was nineteen years old. [Elgesem: - Have you worked with?] – I have not had trouble keeping it in check, no. [Elgesem: Approximately from you was 19 years, was it right?] It was JDA I considered it the first time, yes.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – But regardless of politics and independent of the Labour Party, have you had such thoughts? – [Breivik: - I have ... it's not something I think very much.] No, I understand, but once – sometimes?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Yes I have. Only politically motivated violence. The goal has always been to conduct a reaction. It is not random violence. The years of planning has led to an action, it does not mean that one is an unstable person who wants to hurt anyone around him.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – Your explanation is that it has always been poltisk motivation behind it. Is it right. [Breivik confirmed]. You have spent about 15000 hours selvstuider. You work with very m, ange questions. The order in great detail. Are you a person who is thoroughly in the sort of thing.
Behring Anders Breivik: – Compendium’s made for a tiny, tiny group of people, and it is not meant for the public, and I can understand that it says can be seen as completely twisted. But you must understand that it is written for a small group.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – You have not thought that there should be widespread? [Breivik: - Absolutely not.]
Behring Anders Breivik: – But if you divide it up, one can say that the primary message has reached out to many, but just the peripheral essays that you refer to do not affect the 99 per cent. [Elgesem: - You have spent much time on such things? You are a type that does it?] – On “kind of thing”? It was one thing I would do, and as I did. So “those things” is a mistake to say.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – Just a question to the end of this year when you just played World of Warcraft, it was a year where you had a lot of fun, right?
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: There are significantly fewer listeners in the hall 250 than it was before the last break. Some of d concerned has left the room during Breivik’s explanation, but there have been signs that this is due to questioning. It is also quiet in the hall, and many follow Breivik ansikstuttrykk and explanation of the screens in the auditorium.
Lawyer Frode Elgesem: – [Breivik: - It was a year I had much pleasure, indeed.] One last question: You say you have experienced an intolerable injustice. Are you passionate about justice? Have you experienced any other intolerable injustice than political?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No people trying to connect my childhood and things like that to 22 July but it has no relevance at all. It has a relevance that I am politically active. – I have always been resourceful, and have had a large network of contacts. I think that a disadvantaged person from poor backgrounds would not be able to do what I have done.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – I’ll go some where Hallgren dropped in place, it goes well? [Breivik confirmed.] It’s 22 July and how your condition you had when that is involved in. Were you sane when you did what you did 22 July. Therefore, I’ll tell you a bit about how you were that day, how do you perceive your own condition in the morning?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, as I said earlier have said was that I was very worried that I would be scared and would not be able to sleep that night. But it turned out that I was so exhausted that I fell asleep immediately. Early in the morning I made a list of what to do mentally. – There appeared many problems, and I concluded that the attack against the Government buildings had actually failed because I was not there before two o’clock.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – And what have you earlier last week said that you need to sleep. But did you eat … [Breivik interrupts: Just that in itself resulted in a scenario where 2/3 was in the public holiday ...] But did you eat anything that day?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Sure, I got up and cooked food and made sandwiches. [Larsen: - You made a packed lunch, yes? Where would you want with it?] I should have it on Utøya. – Can you tell us more about what you thought all this time?] – [Mette Yvonne Larsen: - Can you say how you thought?] When I stood up I thought that today I die. I am very little crush on. Then I thought, well I just have to do it. [Mette Yvonne Larsen: - You had any doubts, you would not die. Did you have any other type of assessment than that you were not keen on dying?] – I did not really to survive. Had I thought to survive as there had been a life worse than death. So I thought not. I did reviews all the time, there was a problem, and I had to make new assessments. I had to adapt the strategy plan. Even when I was on Utøya.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – I will take hold of a situation, you said that you were 200 meters from the ministries. When you described that you were in a different mode. Do not use it where the “fight or flight”. We have heard before, but try rather to describe, how were you mentally right before you came to its ministries.
Behring Anders Breivik: – When the plan was that I should go out and put on PST magnet pieces. I thought I could not go out, because then people would attack me. No Rust on roads I had quite a bit, and then it’s easy to overwhelm a person. – I thought that I dropped that plan and put the blue lights instead. And I thought when I was there it was the last chance to cancel. [Mette Yvonne Larsen: - How many seconds was the idea in your head?]
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – How many seconds was the idea in your head? [Breivik: Approximately 120 seconds.] What is it that makes Breivik think that now he will cancel? [Breivik: I thought probably not.]
Behring Anders Breivik: – “The situation I’m in now, I’ve never been to before. Now I’m going to die in two minutes. Many others are going to die too. “[Larsen: - But try to say, what goes through your mind then?]
Behring Anders Breivik: – One can not think properly. The brain is bombarded with a thousand thoughts, and you think you’re going to die in two minutes. I remember that I drove to the edge, I almost could not drive.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – And then over to Utøya. Then you said that it was the worst explanation in your life. Why even then the 22 July did you think that it is the worst day of your life Breivik?
Behring Anders Breivik: – To go back to the car parks, no, I thought that when my body torn to pieces if it will hurt or how it would be …
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – So you rated like a bit like “how does it feel to be killed”? Breivik: – Yes.] Yes. But to go over to Utøya, why it was the worst day of your life?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, that’s all. What I did 22 July is contrary to human nature, you force yourself to do something you do not want to do, but you have prepared yourself for two years.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – Were you afraid there? [Breivik: - I was very nervous but not scared]. I’m just a little bit on the first expert report. Before that, did you mean that the first two expert witnesses, that they had decided early. How did you experience the dialogue with the last two, did you experience the same approach?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I was not too worried about it, because the conversations were filmed. Everything that was written in rap roots could be verified. [Larsen Lawyer: So you were not concerned about it?] No.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – The first report. Do you have it in front of you? [Breivik: - No, but it's no big deal.] But you remember what it says? There, yes, it’s a bit like follow-up of what my colleague Bæra talking about. There you are the more considered in such a GAF assessment. Do you put yourself into what it means?
Yvonne Mette Larsen: – [Breivik: - Yes, like that around.] For you are in this thing called GAF F, assessing mental state. Where did you get scores 23 Between 20 and 31, should you be unable to work.
Behring Anders Breivik: – One who is 23 is the retarded. So I’ve never seen myself like that. [Mette Yvonne Larsen asks Breivik was one of those who do not have family, job or friends?] – No, the score does not describe me at all. [Larsen: Okay. Next is "GAF S". [Reader's conclusion.] Do you have any comments?] The person described in this report is not me, and voices of course not. – Larsen: – But why do you think they have concluded in this way?] I think that they have concluded early. [Larsen: - So the report does not reflect you?] It reflects the person they have described, but the person is not me. Larsen: I will on suicide risk. Can you comment on it in general? Has it been generally a high risk of suicide on your part? – No it has not. I’ve never been suicidal. That I will not be either. [Mette Yvonne Larsen: - I will on the other expert report and the prison health care at Ila's review of you Breivik. Do you remember that you were considered by health professionals at Ila?] – There were several individuals and I remember the names of them, yes. [Larsen asked about a specific doctor was among them]. Jada.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – Have any of the health personnel at Ila at no time considered you as suicidal as far as you know? – [Breivik: - No, they have not done so.] How many people were involved in this period from 27 July, approximately?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It was probably at least ten people maybe more. [Mette Yvonne Larsen: - Has there been psychiatrists and psychologists?] Yes psychologists and psychiatrists and general practitioners.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – I have only two questions left. One is this with bushidokoden as a prosecutor asked you about. Voices you want to have Japanese experts in the matter?
Behring Anders Breivik: – What I said was that I do not think any right psychiatrists from Norway will be objective and I think that the likelihood of an objective assessment is greater if they are from a country with a monoculture ideology. – So I think they’d have the opportunity for a more accurate evaluation.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – How early was in the process that highlighted the issue of Japanese experts?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It think I was the next day. I think I already said it the day after that I will not get any objective assessment of the Norwegian law psychiatrists. So I’ll just inneom a theme.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – You know that your childhood has been raised in the report to the Husby and Sørheim. Were you aware that it was included in the report?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It was not known until I read the report [Larsen: - Can some of what we see from you today to have something with your story to do? You have rejected it before, but I ask you to reflect on it.] – I’ve thought a lot about it and have no memories of when I was four years old. And it has no context. I ran a company and had seven employees. [Mette Yvonne Larsen: - But you do not have memories of it could not have formed you anyway?] – No, I had a surplus of caregivers. I’ve had my whole life, it has never been a lack of it, rather the opposite.
defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: – For those of you here and see you here, I think there are many who wonder if there is something wrong with you, it may seem a bit like …
Behring Anders Breivik: – I understand that people do not understand why 22 July occurred. The main reason they do not make it, is that they have too little knowledge of militant nationalism. Few people know that there have been 40 attacks in Norway after the war. – And they know not how the other groups like al-Qaeda operates. I have great appreciation for it.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – I hear that you say once again that you are a militant nationalist. You are also violent nationalist, I believe we can ascertain. That’s what you want to be. But how do you feel you are not listened to the message of all that is here?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is not surprising. I have written about it in the compendium that people come to see me as insane, that most will not comprehend it. I knew it even before the 22 July, that there is great understanding of bearded Islamists, because it is a shame on them and … But there is no understanding of militant nationalists. And I said just now, too. – I am fully aware that they were sent to madhouse after World War II because they were anti-communists. [Larsen: - Ever conclusion. Law is the way that you should have the inability to assess your relationship with the environment to be regarded as psychotic. Had this 22 July?] – I had not inability. I wrote detailed what would happen and how it would be perceived. There was a point to. What I forgot to say today is that the last two politically-motivated violence has resulted in that they ended up in a psychiatric institution. – Have resulted in psykriaktisk diagnoses. Hadeland killings, militant nationalist who killed a Somali. He ended up in lunatic asylums. He chose not to fight. Then there was the ad ¨ vokaten who shot and injured a person at reception centers. He also ended up in mental hospitals. – Also, he ended up in a mental hospital.
Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: – But now I’m most concerned about you. You understood the question about your relationship with your actions. How was Breivik in relation to this 22 July to assess their relationship to the environment?
Behring Anders Breivik: – There are no problems to consider my own relationship with the outside world.
Law Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby: – We will not go into detail in our eklæring the questions now. There for we come back to. – The fact that we had already decided. Is there anything you have come in afterwards? Did you get while you were here, or is it something that has come afterwards?
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Pause] It has since been submitted. I realized it was so when I read the report. If I had suspected that during the talks, I would not have done it.
Law Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby: – In connection with the five points you think that is partial and not partial explanations that we have lied about 80 percent of the explanation, it was like it was a point that was [Breivik interrupts]
Behring Anders Breivik: – There was one point yes. [Husby: Emotional instability?] What I said is that the action ….
Law Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby: – Do you think that you, with emotional instability and incompetence that you mentioned just now … Why are you smiling? The fact that our emotional instability should be the reason why we have committed 80% fabrication of your statement? – So you think it is a personal agenda, not a systematic? Behring Anders Breivik: – I think you acted naturally and too attached to emotionally. It is impossible to avoid media coverage of it …
Behring Anders Breivik: – You are only human. That is what is my theory anyway. The event was closely related to the evaluation.
Law Psychiatrist Synne Sørheim: – But I know it certainly is not. Why should the fact that it was close to the event meant that we would have produced 80% of the calls, what should it … What is the connection?
Behring Anders Breivik: – What I think is that you could not believe that a normal person could do such a thing. A person who does something so terrible can not be normal. He must be sick. – You would support that conclusion. It is, I have no evidence for it, of course, why I asked you about why I was able to identify 200 lies.
Law Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby: – Next question: Short to something you said earlier. You talked about percentages. And when you talked about the civilians. And then you said that 95, 98, 99 percent are civilians you said.
Behring Anders Breivik: – Yes, in Norway, are you thinking? Or … I’ll let you talk finished. [Husby: - No, no, it was so far ... Mit the question was really, what are the 1-5 percent that is not civil?] – What I’ve said is that the only thing I consider to be legitimate targets. are political activists who fight for multiculturalism. It is not appropriate to go into detail about it. – [Husby: - But you've got your group] I have a clear idea about it. Therefore it is wrong to talk in percentages when I have provided for it.
Law Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby: – To be aware that between 95 and 99 percent is a forksjell of 250,000 humans. [Breivik: Yes, I'm not qualified to say anything more about it, I have not made any estimate of the rings]
Behring Anders Breivik: – My point is that … [Husby: - But what would happen to them, ie what is the fate of those?]
Behring Anders Breivik: – I consider the political activists who work for the implementation of multiculturalism as legitimate targets. There’s no point to define it more than that.
Law Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby: – One last question. What percentage do you think you have changed the explanation of the bubble we talked on the Ila until we are here in court?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, I do not want to answer it. [Husby: You have adapted the legend, you say it several times]. I have given the same explanation to you that I have given to poltiiet. – [Husby: - As you pass here?] No, that is all that I have conveyed to you, I have said in the interview. I guess only certain words, such as I have said “network” instead of “pan-European organization,” that I have any of the pompous rhetoric, which I have toned down a little. – But the content is exactly the same. [Sørheim: - It was the use of concepts as well. I do not think we can manage to enter the premises of the themes, but with whether you had thoughts about taking your life. I wish you could tell it in your own words this to end your life with the Norwegian word "suicide" .... but ... you smile?]
Law Psychiatrist Synne Sørheim: – But the lawyer Larsen was on the site of suicide. What I wish was if your words could describe the difference to his life and end his life, I see you smile? [Breivik: - You are trying to trick me out on thin ice]
Behring Anders Breivik: – You lead me out onto the slippery ice. [Sørheim: It was not intended. What is different about suicide and what you call self-termination or as a martyr] I do not want to comment on it. – [Sørheim: - This suicide and martyrdom. You explain that this is not the same ...] What you’ve described, you just described martyrdom as suicide and it is wrong, for it is not the same. But it’s not really a theological debate, and when we should really have had theological experts.
Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: – A small stretch of the comment. Now, among other things, Holden made a statement out of the report. We should gather together when we submit declarations of the premises on which it is based.
Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: – You have the right meant that the expert Husby and Sørheim have lied in their report. Is there a middle ground. For example, they have considered it differently than you do?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No. [Aspaas: They have lied]. Yes. [Aspaas: You are not afraid that they will take this as evidence that you are paranoid then, Breivik?]
Comment from Eva VG-Therese Grøttum: The attendance in the saddle 250 is noticeably more concentrated when the committee makes Breivik questions than they have been the last hour. Many have leaned towards the screens and the witness stand, and listen carefully to what is being said.
Behring Anders Breivik: – Yes, that is, there is always a danger that, because as I said in the interview as well, they have denied me the opportunity to accuse them of using “paranoid” stamp. – So it’s of course … [Aspaas: - Why do it?] It is the truth.
Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: – It is the truth, you are sure of that? [Breivik: - Then I rather take the risk.] – So, you said that Husby and Sørheim lacks knowledge of politically motivated terrorism. Do you have reason to believe that Tørrissen and I have more knowledge about it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – The fact that you do not believe that there are delusions, indicating the level of knowledge that theirs is higher, but it is not to say that you have much knowledge about it, and I think would not you rather have .
Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: – Also, it has been that of economic dependency. Do you have any reason to believe that I and Tørrissen is less dependent on commission from the public?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No. I think not. There is a theory that I do not believe. [Aspaas: - You mentioned a psychiatrist earlier in the day that should have supported the detention of dissidents in Soviet psychiatric institutions. It was a theme in some of the conversation we had. I said I'm not sure, have you checked any more about it?] – It’s a eksredaktør in Aftenposten called Hegge who have track of all those in Norway who supported the use of mental hospitals. As the expert in this area is not really him. – [Aspaas: - Have you checked out the page we talked about it?] I have asked my lawyer do it, and I have also talked to others about it. I have not a hundred percent evidence for it, but …
Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: – For when we talked about it, you had another name above you … [Breivik: - Is it true.] Do you remember that? Can you say more?
Behring Anders Breivik: – [Aspaas: - You mentioned Leo Eitinger to support this]. It was not really any of you who mentioned that name. So I made an assumption on what turned out to be wrong. – Eitinger was not one of them. [Aspaas: Last question: You were in on the conversation you had with Husby and Sørheim. [Reading from the report] – [Breivik smiles.] The interrogation, you know what context it was taken in? Is there a police interrogation, or? [Aspaas: - No, it was a conversation that the experts had with your mother.] Breivik explains how he perceived this conversation. – Judge Arne Lyng: Then we must make a leap to the morning of 22 July. You explained the place that you ate the food, do you remember what you made today? I made sandwiches with cheese and ham.
Judge Arne Lyng: – How was your appetite?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It was completely normal. No, it is probably wrong to say it. I do not remember, but I remember that I ate.
Judge Arne Lyng: – So you told me that you made lunch. Did you eat the lunch that day?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, I did not. I drank a Red Bull instead.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – I have a few questions. You often use the word “pompous”, it is perhaps the word you use most. Do you have any idea when you started using that word?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I do not remember. It was well, it’s a word that appeared in the police interrogation, perhaps less than a month before the first report.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – So it was a word you used in police interrogation before the first report. [Breivik: - It may be I'm wrong] In the report, you have explained in conversation with Aspaas. You will be asked for the title of Justice Knight. You say it’s a draft. About Justice Knights says it is a title you have made.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – But you say when it comes to KT network, “He stressed, however, that individuals exist in KT really exist. Regardless of whether the police have managed to indentifiere them or not. He should have used other words, KT initially. The fact that it is about some other individuals who wish to associate themselves with KT Network. “I would like you to elaborate on this?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, that is, when I talked about six individuals associated with the KT network. And they are associated with the KT network.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – For what you are quoted is that it was about a few individuals who wanted to connect with KT. And then the question is, were they associated or so they wanted to associate themselves.
Behring Anders Breivik: – They were connected but it was not desire it. [Holden: - The Database for questioning this is the first time you use the word pompous from 1 March 2012. [Breivik is surprised]: You can not vote then you should check again [Holden: - Then I ask them to check up behind me there]
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – So it is something that is also featured in one or both reports. This with spiders on Vålstua farm. Can you say more about the problem it was?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It was not a problem with spiders up there, but there were very many trebiller there. In the beginning, so I just ignored them, and then they crawled up in different places, and when I killed them, perhaps 60-70 pieces. The problem was that they were very active at night, and I also worked a lot at night, so they were a big problem. – But it was probably just in the part of the year where they spawned. I told police exactly where they threw them, so they can locate them if they want. But spiders were never a problem.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – Last question is a phrase you’ve used several times is that it is contrary to human nature. And it’s our question, what made you able contrary to human nature and in a situation where you were all alone? – And we’ve heard a lot about your ideology. We have also heard about meditation. But I would like you to explain us about your subjective conditions to achieve this.
Behring Anders Breivik: – There are at very many levels, it is the ideological justification, then there is the documentation of the ULEV injustice. The actual realities in Norwegian society. Then there is the preparation you do, because you know you should carry something awful, so I have to prepare for it. – It allows, for example, by looking at the horrible pictures and try to visualize what is in the process.
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – You saw the terrible images of the training? [Breivik: - Yes I did] How did you find these pictures?
Behring Anders Breivik: – There were pictures appended to genocide or conflicts, very bloody conflicts in the world. [Arntzen: Was there such images on the internet. Or in the games you played] No, not at all. So it went on everything from the use of chemicals as well, sterioider, and ECA, it works in this context also as a part of it. It is a package that includes embrace very factors and chemicals is one of them. So there are very many factors. And there is something to take seriously if we are to have any chance to implement it.
VG: – [Arntzen: - Yes, it's an additional question from the judge ...?] Wisløff: My question was on it with chemicals, but now it’s answered, so …
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – There are many who will ask questions. [Judge: - When you run the washer Grubbegaten craft. When you park what do you think would have happened if you had run away?
Anders Breivik Behring - I had been arrested. I think probably they had seen police uniform also, at the cameras.
Judge Ernst Henning Eielsen: - Does it in any way influenced your decision to continue the operation? [Breivik: - It is enough.]
Behring Anders Breivik: – You are in a way self-employed.
Judge Ernst Henning Eielsen: – So when you had run into it with the craft, in this case, you are identified and there is no point in turning?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Yes, in many ways. You will enough and could always turn around, of course. But it probably played a role. [Lay judge: You have used tildigere nummret di doctrine ring. Can you say what you mean by the term?] – Indoctrination, it goes on the programming, in English called it the “conditioning”, one renders a person or an individual to think, or have certain beliefs. It could mean several things, but in this context as it is.
Lay judge: – Have you used yourself as an experiment?
Behring Anders Breivik: – To a certain extent. But what are you referring to exactly? I think probably there were many of the processes that were experimental. – Then there were also traditions that were obtained which is actually …. not certain that other militant nationalists in Europe, taking up what I was trying to introduce. But time will tell.
Law Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby: – [Lay judge: - No Thanks, I have received answers to my questions.] Husby have a question. You have answered some of it, but I have two questions related to it with pomposity. Why did you choose to be pompous for 22.7? And the second is, how did you record that you had been pompous?
Behring Anders Breivik: – It is a good queried. Part of the reason was that I wanted to use the forensic psychiatric report as a source of propaganda for I knew that it would be leaked. [Husby: - Would you use our report as a source of political propaganda?] – I knew it would be passed and in that context it would be interesting to specify what is in the compendium as much as possible. – And in that context, in the marketing context, it was stragetisk riktrig to do, but it has proved that it was wrong to do. [Husby: Is not that a form of kompliseri? What you present is now more about what KT network is?] – Yes, but, in the statement that I presented to you, so I chose a magnificent presentation, because I saw it as a marketing opportunity … [Husby: - When was it you came to that?] – There, I found out … I came to that conclusion even a month before your report. [Husby: How did you come up to it?] – It was well, I do not know. I do not remember the circumstances. [Husby: - Was that pompøseri not appropriate?] If you go back to the point where I pass it less pompous one will know. – First: We took a double check on the word “pompous”. It is first recorded in interviews on March 1 this year. First results on glansibilde is 18 October 2011, just as it is ready.
prosecutor Svein Holden: – But only one thing on my part. I have been informed that out of 25 cabinet ministers, it was not placed in psychiatric hospitals. Everyone got a judgment.
Behring Anders Breivik: – I know of at least one more. Like … so you believe it? Who is your source? [Holden: - The source of some historians, government, Great Norwegian Encyclopaedia and a lexicon of war.] – No, when I need to check with my source but I have heard something completely different. But I am aware that this is unknown. [Holden: - Is this a form of propaganda?] – It may be, but I have to do more research on it.
prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: – Just a little extension of what we talked about. When questioned, as you sit in a long interview with the police, and you start talking about the KT network. How do you find those interviewing you? Do you see any reaction from them on what you tell? Got you some impressions of it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – No, I think both the police from the very beginning has meant that, on the background that they have not been able to identify other persons, that there are other people.
prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: – Surprised that you the reaction you have received the manifest. So, this is after 22 July. If you had predicted that people would think this is absolutely crazy?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Firstly, it is not public, it is a small group of radical individuals.
prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: – But this small group, then, did you have any thoughts they would find it crazy?
Behring Anders Breivik: – Well, it’s so large document, so many themes, some of the topics being considered crazy because they are so radical.
Behring Anders Breivik: – But there is much that is very extreme there. But I have a comment you too. On the picture that was shown with the logo which was Marxist-hunter. It was a physical piece that came on the arm. It is not manipulated into the picture. [Bejer Engh: - But what about the Utøya then?] – I did not go with the brand on Utøya. One other thing. You claim I have lived in Fearnley Street. I have never lived in Fearnley Street.
prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: – I saw you responded to it, so then we may be wrong. We’ll check up. [Judge Arntzen: - When the time is almost four, but I have two questions. Then it Hein Bæra first.]
defender Vibeke Hein consequences: – It is just a follow-up when he used the word “pompous”. [Refers to a document] “As I have described the KT, it is a glossy picture of the KT, but in practice, KT being established. “What is the difference between the use of the word” glossy picture “and” pompous “? – [Breivik: - It is exactly the same word] Just a clarification to in the tremendous number of interviews that are done are in the documents only short excerpts from what is done. It is possible the word pompous is used without it coming in the document excerpts.
Law Psychiatrist Synne Sørheim: – This is a collection from the 19 I particularly noted that the specified initial that Sørheim and Husby in his declaration not issued a trust that you were in Liberia. This is my question: Where did you read it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – When I said that? [Sørheim: - You said that on 19 here in court.] Ok. I have not really rattled off a number of points in the written chronicle that I have passed on, but it may well vote that you have never … I do not think I have described it earlier.
Rettspykiater Synne Sørheim: – No, out here in court on 19, because when you describe it?
Behring Anders Breivik: – I remember we talked about it but you did not believe that I had met someone down there and you did not think I had been in Liberia. [Right Psychiatrist Synne Sørheim: But where in the declaration, you read that? I did not think I had read it, but it was something I thought.]
Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: – It’s four o’clock and the right event. The court is adjourned.
VG: – The time of 16:00 and the court is now adjourned….
Original article: Ord for ord, dag 8, del 3: Breivik spørres ut av Husby og Sørheim